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Selling personal data -- an experiment


 

To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business?
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088




Milton Pedraza
 

Three aren’t any. It’s up to us to step up and create them for people. 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988
mpedraza@...


On Jul 24, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:


To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business?
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088


<indie-computing-logo-01.png>


Iain Henderson
 

I’d disagree, it is very easy to illustrate what is currently happening in the market and how that can be bettered.

That said, I think selling personal data is the wrong framing; that’s not how it is going to work. It will work through reciprocity - i.e. mutually beneficial relationships.

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)

I am a mid range, mass market car manufacturer, currently paying a range of intermediaries between £100 and £200 per qualified lead; i.e. people who are actively in the market for things like that which I sell.

* What data do you want to buy from me?

I want to buy the details of your requirement (spec, timing, optional points, price sensitivity)

* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 

If you can get me that data either ’same data bit cheaper’, or ‘better data, same price’ or, ‘much more qualifying data at higher price’ then it would be economically stupid of me not to buy from you.

* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))

As above - same date but cheaper, or better data same price; or much better data, higher price 

* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I only pay out when the purchase has been made and verified (either through myself or a competitor)

I could fill in the above very easily for about 30 different sectors in which paying for qualified leads is absolutely business as usual.

This article might be also useful background.


Cheers

Iain



On 24 Jul 2020, at 23:58, Milton Pedraza <mpedraza@...> wrote:

Three aren’t any. It’s up to us to step up and create them for people. 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988


On Jul 24, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:


To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088


<indie-computing-logo-01.png>

<indie-computing-logo-01.png>


Milton Pedraza
 

I respect that. To be discussed. Will reach out.

 There are many well intentioned people out there, sitting in their  luxury fortress, making decisions for poor people,  who are totally clueless what it’s like to be poor. So they don’t think cash in hand matters. Or know what it’s like to be African American, or Hispanic, or another subtly and overtly suppressed minority group. Imagine being poor in this pandemic.  Most of us can’t fathom that. No empathy. Just sympathy. It’s too scary. So we think cause we’re smart and educated we know what is best for these people. We were helicoptered into third base so we pretend we hit a triple. 

That’s a major part of the world and they need representation and real time resources. Their data is a vast resource for them. We can and should help them. And we should help ethical brands to connect with them in a fair data exchange relationship. And it seems to me that whatever we call it, it’s a marketplace and an exchange of value. 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988
mpedraza@...


On Jul 24, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Iain Henderson <iain.henderson@...> wrote:

 I’d disagree, it is very easy to illustrate what is currently happening in the market and how that can be bettered.

That said, I think selling personal data is the wrong framing; that’s not how it is going to work. It will work through reciprocity - i.e. mutually beneficial relationships.

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)

I am a mid range, mass market car manufacturer, currently paying a range of intermediaries between £100 and £200 per qualified lead; i.e. people who are actively in the market for things like that which I sell.

* What data do you want to buy from me?

I want to buy the details of your requirement (spec, timing, optional points, price sensitivity)

* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 

If you can get me that data either ’same data bit cheaper’, or ‘better data, same price’ or, ‘much more qualifying data at higher price’ then it would be economically stupid of me not to buy from you.

* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))

As above - same date but cheaper, or better data same price; or much better data, higher price 

* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I only pay out when the purchase has been made and verified (either through myself or a competitor)

I could fill in the above very easily for about 30 different sectors in which paying for qualified leads is absolutely business as usual.

This article might be also useful background.


Cheers

Iain



On 24 Jul 2020, at 23:58, Milton Pedraza <mpedraza@...> wrote:

Three aren’t any. It’s up to us to step up and create them for people. 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988


On Jul 24, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:


To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088


<indie-computing-logo-01.png>

<indie-computing-logo-01.png>


 

On Jul 24, 2020, at 15:58, Milton Pedraza <mpedraza@...> wrote:

Three aren’t any. It’s up to us to step up and create them for people. 

That’s exactly why I proposed the thought experiment. Let’s see how this could actually work, hypothetically, because that would be the first step in “creat[ing] them for people”.

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088




 

On Jul 24, 2020, at 16:16, Iain Henderson <iain.henderson@...> wrote:

I’d disagree,

Excellent :-)

But … (below)

it is very easy to illustrate what is currently happening in the market and how that can be bettered.

That said, I think selling personal data is the wrong framing; that’s not how it is going to work. It will work through reciprocity - i.e. mutually beneficial relationships.

(Re-reading before hitting Send I realize you are actually making my point here. Providing, yes, please. Selling, not so much. So you may agree with much that I typed below.)

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)

I am a mid range, mass market car manufacturer, currently paying a range of intermediaries between £100 and £200 per qualified lead; i.e. people who are actively in the market for things like that which I sell.

* What data do you want to buy from me?

I want to buy the details of your requirement (spec, timing, optional points, price sensitivity)

* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 

If you can get me that data either ’same data bit cheaper’, or ‘better data, same price’ or, ‘much more qualifying data at higher price’ then it would be economically stupid of me not to buy from you.

* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))

As above - same date but cheaper, or better data same price; or much better data, higher price 

Can you describe the mechanics by which this is supposed to work?

In our example, You are trying to market a car to Me. You want to focus your marketing dollars on people who are likely going to buy that car, and not on those who aren’t. So far, so good. 

You currently pay a third party for identifying prospects, such as Me, to You. You hand them money. They hand you a list of prospects. Ok. But you want to take that third party out of the equation, right?

So how do you identify prospects such as Me? Are you going to offer “everybody" some money to provide their requirements to you, and then you market your car only to those people whose data matches? Or …? (Because if so, I doubt that you’ll end up with less spend on lead generation. At least the math is not obvious.)

And how do you solve the problem of even communicating the “money for your data” offer to everybody? Don’t you have a similar marketing problem there, just for a different product (data, rather than car)?


* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I only pay out when the purchase has been made and verified (either through myself or a competitor)

So You are telling Me, in our example: “Please provide this data to me, and if you buy a car within 3 months, I will give you $50” (or whatever the price).

I have a hard time seeing that I would do that. For one, the amount is small compared to the eventual price of the car, so I’d much rather resolve to negotiate a better purchase price if I indeed buy that car within 3 months. Also, I am quite certain I would come away with the impression that if You make offers like this, You most likely also just raised the prices of your cars by $50 which is not a good start if you want to sell me something.


I could fill in the above very easily for about 30 different sectors in which paying for qualified leads is absolutely business as usual.

I agree that if this car example can be made to work, it will likely also work for other sectors. If...

To be clear, I believe in customer-provided data. I just don’t see that selling such data has any incremental, substantial benefits for these kinds of interactions beyond providing for free as part of a relationship.

Cheers,


Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088




susan morrow <susiemorrow@...>
 

And switching it around to the actual human part of the transaction...

I am a woman with a 3-month old baby and nowhere to live. I am sofa surfing to keep my baby from living on the streets. I use a friend's computers but I still have online accounts because I wasn't always homeless and won't always be so (although I don't know that at the time) - so I do have digital data to sell. I go online using a friend's computer and see that I can now sell my data. Bloody great because I am totally skint and my baby needs a warm coat for the winter. I sell to whoever and however because I do not have the luxury of choice and consent is a joke when there is no choice.

You are creating a dystopian stick to hit people without choice if you make personal data a commodity - I don't like nanny states but this is not about that. If we were working in health or science we'd have to have an ethical framework to work off. Technologists don't seem to care coz it's about the money.

I am going back to my cave.

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:51 PM Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:
To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business?
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088




Milton Pedraza
 

It’s not a commodity, it’s a precious resource and the representation of a human life that can be a force for good. That’s the point. Human life and dignity are being devalued as a commodity right now by platforms. And we need to create representation and fair treatment and value for all human beings. The Mes need to be ethically and fairly represented in an asymmetrical digital world where data is the greatest resource. I agree with some that depending on its use, such as finding a cure, data can have high value. Those whose data was used should be fairly compensated. It’s complex, but like poverty and racism, the status quo must be changed. No perfect answers but a positive direction. 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988
mpedraza@...


On Jul 25, 2020, at 4:51 AM, susan morrow <susiemorrow@...> wrote:


And switching it around to the actual human part of the transaction...

I am a woman with a 3-month old baby and nowhere to live. I am sofa surfing to keep my baby from living on the streets. I use a friend's computers but I still have online accounts because I wasn't always homeless and won't always be so (although I don't know that at the time) - so I do have digital data to sell. I go online using a friend's computer and see that I can now sell my data. Bloody great because I am totally skint and my baby needs a warm coat for the winter. I sell to whoever and however because I do not have the luxury of choice and consent is a joke when there is no choice.

You are creating a dystopian stick to hit people without choice if you make personal data a commodity - I don't like nanny states but this is not about that. If we were working in health or science we'd have to have an ethical framework to work off. Technologists don't seem to care coz it's about the money.

I am going back to my cave.

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:51 PM Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:
To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business?
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088


<indie-computing-logo-01.png>


susan morrow <susan.morrow@...>
 

Good luck Milton


On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:33 AM Milton Pedraza <mpedraza@...> wrote:
It’s not a commodity, it’s a precious resource and the representation of a human life that can be a force for good. That’s the point. Human life and dignity are being devalued as a commodity right now by platforms. And we need to create representation and fair treatment and value for all human beings. The Mes need to be ethically and fairly represented in an asymmetrical digital world where data is the greatest resource. I agree with some that depending on its use, such as finding a cure, data can have high value. Those whose data was used should be fairly compensated. It’s complex, but like poverty and racism, the status quo must be changed. No perfect answers but a positive direction. 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988


On Jul 25, 2020, at 4:51 AM, susan morrow <susiemorrow@...> wrote:


And switching it around to the actual human part of the transaction...

I am a woman with a 3-month old baby and nowhere to live. I am sofa surfing to keep my baby from living on the streets. I use a friend's computers but I still have online accounts because I wasn't always homeless and won't always be so (although I don't know that at the time) - so I do have digital data to sell. I go online using a friend's computer and see that I can now sell my data. Bloody great because I am totally skint and my baby needs a warm coat for the winter. I sell to whoever and however because I do not have the luxury of choice and consent is a joke when there is no choice.

You are creating a dystopian stick to hit people without choice if you make personal data a commodity - I don't like nanny states but this is not about that. If we were working in health or science we'd have to have an ethical framework to work off. Technologists don't seem to care coz it's about the money.

I am going back to my cave.

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:51 PM Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:
To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business?
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088


<indie-computing-logo-01.png>



--
Susan Morrow
Head of R&D Avoco Identity
@avocoidentity
T: 07917507826

Avoco Secure are providers of Cloud Identity, Security and Privacy solutions.

Registered Office: Avoco Secure Ltd., 16 St. Martin's-le-Grand, London EC1A 4EE. Company number : 04778206 - Registered in England and Wales.


Milton Pedraza
 

I will take your points into account. Thank you 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988
mpedraza@...


On Jul 25, 2020, at 6:37 AM, susan morrow <susan.morrow@...> wrote:


Good luck Milton

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:33 AM Milton Pedraza <mpedraza@...> wrote:
It’s not a commodity, it’s a precious resource and the representation of a human life that can be a force for good. That’s the point. Human life and dignity are being devalued as a commodity right now by platforms. And we need to create representation and fair treatment and value for all human beings. The Mes need to be ethically and fairly represented in an asymmetrical digital world where data is the greatest resource. I agree with some that depending on its use, such as finding a cure, data can have high value. Those whose data was used should be fairly compensated. It’s complex, but like poverty and racism, the status quo must be changed. No perfect answers but a positive direction. 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988


On Jul 25, 2020, at 4:51 AM, susan morrow <susiemorrow@...> wrote:


And switching it around to the actual human part of the transaction...

I am a woman with a 3-month old baby and nowhere to live. I am sofa surfing to keep my baby from living on the streets. I use a friend's computers but I still have online accounts because I wasn't always homeless and won't always be so (although I don't know that at the time) - so I do have digital data to sell. I go online using a friend's computer and see that I can now sell my data. Bloody great because I am totally skint and my baby needs a warm coat for the winter. I sell to whoever and however because I do not have the luxury of choice and consent is a joke when there is no choice.

You are creating a dystopian stick to hit people without choice if you make personal data a commodity - I don't like nanny states but this is not about that. If we were working in health or science we'd have to have an ethical framework to work off. Technologists don't seem to care coz it's about the money.

I am going back to my cave.

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:51 PM Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:
To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business?
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088


<indie-computing-logo-01.png>



--
Susan Morrow
Head of R&D Avoco Identity
@avocoidentity
T: 07917507826

Avoco Secure are providers of Cloud Identity, Security and Privacy solutions.

Registered Office: Avoco Secure Ltd., 16 St. Martin's-le-Grand, London EC1A 4EE. Company number : 04778206 - Registered in England and Wales.


James A (One.Thing.Less)
 

I agree with Iain‘s example below. One of the most difficult aspects to address though will be how to overcome the market dominance of the established players (e.g. Google, Facebook, Amazon). Under pressure they could offer a functionality as part of their services where a Me can do better intent casting (potentially also incentivized as they have deep pockets) and at the same time offer the B‘s an integrated solution that tracks the successful conversions.

Concrete example: Google offers a Me looking for a car (based on browsing behavior) USD 10 to participate in a 10-20 question survey regarding the details of the Me‘s car requirement (spec, brands, timing, budget etc.) and consent to share with car manufacturers / retailers. Then Google offers that information and the possibility to hand in an offer for USD 20 to 20 manufacturers and 20 car dealers, making USD 400 in revenues with that bit of information if everyone buys. Google might even use AI to browse the online inventories of manufacturers and retailers to select only those who would love to get a car (working capital) off their lot ASAP... 

It would be very hard (but not impossible with the right financial backing) to compete with the big ones, ending most likely in an acquisition by one of the big players and being integrated in Google search...

My 2 cents.
James


On 25 Jul 2020, at 01:16, Iain Henderson via groups.io <iain.henderson@...> wrote:

 I’d disagree, it is very easy to illustrate what is currently happening in the market and how that can be bettered.

That said, I think selling personal data is the wrong framing; that’s not how it is going to work. It will work through reciprocity - i.e. mutually beneficial relationships.

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)

I am a mid range, mass market car manufacturer, currently paying a range of intermediaries between £100 and £200 per qualified lead; i.e. people who are actively in the market for things like that which I sell.

* What data do you want to buy from me?

I want to buy the details of your requirement (spec, timing, optional points, price sensitivity)

* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 

If you can get me that data either ’same data bit cheaper’, or ‘better data, same price’ or, ‘much more qualifying data at higher price’ then it would be economically stupid of me not to buy from you.

* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))

As above - same date but cheaper, or better data same price; or much better data, higher price 

* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I only pay out when the purchase has been made and verified (either through myself or a competitor)

I could fill in the above very easily for about 30 different sectors in which paying for qualified leads is absolutely business as usual.

This article might be also useful background.


Cheers

Iain



On 24 Jul 2020, at 23:58, Milton Pedraza <mpedraza@...> wrote:

Three aren’t any. It’s up to us to step up and create them for people. 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988


On Jul 24, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:


To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088


<indie-computing-logo-01.png>

<indie-computing-logo-01.png>


Iain Henderson
 

Hi Johannes, as you say we are agreeing here; I don’t think this market will emerge through people wishing to directly sell their data. But as Susan says, one should not rule that out in some scenarios.

The scenarios you outline below are just not going to happen as they do not make economic sense for either party.

Iain

On 25 Jul 2020, at 00:53, Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:

On Jul 24, 2020, at 16:16, Iain Henderson <iain.henderson@...> wrote:

I’d disagree,

Excellent :-)

But … (below)

it is very easy to illustrate what is currently happening in the market and how that can be bettered.

That said, I think selling personal data is the wrong framing; that’s not how it is going to work. It will work through reciprocity - i.e. mutually beneficial relationships.

(Re-reading before hitting Send I realize you are actually making my point here. Providing, yes, please. Selling, not so much. So you may agree with much that I typed below.)

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)

I am a mid range, mass market car manufacturer, currently paying a range of intermediaries between £100 and £200 per qualified lead; i.e. people who are actively in the market for things like that which I sell.

* What data do you want to buy from me?

I want to buy the details of your requirement (spec, timing, optional points, price sensitivity)

* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 

If you can get me that data either ’same data bit cheaper’, or ‘better data, same price’ or, ‘much more qualifying data at higher price’ then it would be economically stupid of me not to buy from you.

* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))

As above - same date but cheaper, or better data same price; or much better data, higher price 

Can you describe the mechanics by which this is supposed to work?

In our example, You are trying to market a car to Me. You want to focus your marketing dollars on people who are likely going to buy that car, and not on those who aren’t. So far, so good. 

You currently pay a third party for identifying prospects, such as Me, to You. You hand them money. They hand you a list of prospects. Ok. But you want to take that third party out of the equation, right?

So how do you identify prospects such as Me? Are you going to offer “everybody" some money to provide their requirements to you, and then you market your car only to those people whose data matches? Or …? (Because if so, I doubt that you’ll end up with less spend on lead generation. At least the math is not obvious.)

And how do you solve the problem of even communicating the “money for your data” offer to everybody? Don’t you have a similar marketing problem there, just for a different product (data, rather than car)?


* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I only pay out when the purchase has been made and verified (either through myself or a competitor)

So You are telling Me, in our example: “Please provide this data to me, and if you buy a car within 3 months, I will give you $50” (or whatever the price).

I have a hard time seeing that I would do that. For one, the amount is small compared to the eventual price of the car, so I’d much rather resolve to negotiate a better purchase price if I indeed buy that car within 3 months. Also, I am quite certain I would come away with the impression that if You make offers like this, You most likely also just raised the prices of your cars by $50 which is not a good start if you want to sell me something.


I could fill in the above very easily for about 30 different sectors in which paying for qualified leads is absolutely business as usual.

I agree that if this car example can be made to work, it will likely also work for other sectors. If...

To be clear, I believe in customer-provided data. I just don’t see that selling such data has any incremental, substantial benefits for these kinds of interactions beyond providing for free as part of a relationship.

Cheers,


Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088


<indie-computing-logo-01.png>



Iain Henderson
 

Agreed James, although I suspect the steady state for ‘considered purchases’ won’t need/ benefit from intermediaries. Individuals (demand) will have standardised API’s as will the manufacturers, distributors and retailers (supply).

If you look at considered purchases in more detail, Google, Facebook and Amazon don’t actually try to do too much in those spaces other than hand off to sector level experts after the search phase. For example, if you do a google search for ’new car’ you get intermediaries at the top of the list as below. Behind the scenes the manufacturers are happy to let the intermediaries separate the wheat from the chaff (unless the search mentions them specifically).

Iain



On 25 Jul 2020, at 12:06, James A (One.Thing.Less) <James@...> wrote:

I agree with Iain‘s example below. One of the most difficult aspects to address though will be how to overcome the market dominance of the established players (e.g. Google, Facebook, Amazon). Under pressure they could offer a functionality as part of their services where a Me can do better intent casting (potentially also incentivized as they have deep pockets) and at the same time offer the B‘s an integrated solution that tracks the successful conversions.

Concrete example: Google offers a Me looking for a car (based on browsing behavior) USD 10 to participate in a 10-20 question survey regarding the details of the Me‘s car requirement (spec, brands, timing, budget etc.) and consent to share with car manufacturers / retailers. Then Google offers that information and the possibility to hand in an offer for USD 20 to 20 manufacturers and 20 car dealers, making USD 400 in revenues with that bit of information if everyone buys. Google might even use AI to browse the online inventories of manufacturers and retailers to select only those who would love to get a car (working capital) off their lot ASAP... 

It would be very hard (but not impossible with the right financial backing) to compete with the big ones, ending most likely in an acquisition by one of the big players and being integrated in Google search...

My 2 cents.
James


On 25 Jul 2020, at 01:16, Iain Henderson via groups.io <iain.henderson@...> wrote:

 I’d disagree, it is very easy to illustrate what is currently happening in the market and how that can be bettered.

That said, I think selling personal data is the wrong framing; that’s not how it is going to work. It will work through reciprocity - i.e. mutually beneficial relationships.

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)

I am a mid range, mass market car manufacturer, currently paying a range of intermediaries between £100 and £200 per qualified lead; i.e. people who are actively in the market for things like that which I sell.

* What data do you want to buy from me?

I want to buy the details of your requirement (spec, timing, optional points, price sensitivity)

* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 

If you can get me that data either ’same data bit cheaper’, or ‘better data, same price’ or, ‘much more qualifying data at higher price’ then it would be economically stupid of me not to buy from you.

* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))

As above - same date but cheaper, or better data same price; or much better data, higher price 

* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I only pay out when the purchase has been made and verified (either through myself or a competitor)

I could fill in the above very easily for about 30 different sectors in which paying for qualified leads is absolutely business as usual.

This article might be also useful background.


Cheers

Iain



On 24 Jul 2020, at 23:58, Milton Pedraza <mpedraza@...> wrote:

Three aren’t any. It’s up to us to step up and create them for people. 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988


On Jul 24, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:


To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088


<indie-computing-logo-01.png>

<indie-computing-logo-01.png>



Phil Wolff
 

Assumption: poor people don't have high value data about being a consumer. If they did, they'd be pimping it by now. 


Milton Pedraza
 

What if: a person of limited financial means had a genetic makeup that a few dozen labs globally would like to access to address a medical challenge. Could a data fiduciary represent that individual and make the genetic data available to all or most labs with legal, ethical and fair value representation? Can value exchange be fair, or does it all come down to pimping? Are we all pimping because we exchange fair value? 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988
mpedraza@...


On Jul 31, 2020, at 6:56 PM, Phil Wolff <pevanwolf@...> wrote:


Assumption: poor people don't have high value data about being a consumer. If they did, they'd be pimping it by now. 


Lubna Dajani
 


As usual I agree with Susan. 

We must re-examine the framing; step out of the context of today’s failed models where personal data is being used and abused for the sake of short term profits and think of what and how it is that we will actually (technically and in practice) establish new framing rather than bandaids and workarounds reenforcing the same framing and foundation which we know will leading down a misguided path.

Let’s  ask ourselves how do we enable individuals (person or entities) to be transparently, anonymously and “fairly” compensated for the value of their data that they chose to make available for exchange in the market place, free from considerations of how it is done today?

Can we step back from today’s models?   

The use case discussed here about marketing products to targeted individuals using their data to manipulate their behavior to further feed a false need and desire to over consume and waste so we can sell more faster, all for the economic benefit of shareholders at all coasts to environment and  other stakeholders. 

How can we begin to frame a new way and rational for exchange and commerce? 

In the marketing/advertising example used in the trail suggests that the current models will remain and I don’t believe we or the planet can afford to continue enabling consumerism and the ways of today. 

I believe it’s our obligation at technologist and thought leaders to envisage and establish a new way of sharing and exchanging that have regenerative and functional basis. We know each and every individual has a unique value to offer in this life and we need to think about what we can do to facilitate meaningful exchange.  

I also wonder about our labels and all that comes with them. If I am making my data (Anonymously or otherwise) available for a value then am I not the seller/vendor in this case? And if I am the buyer/consumer be it of data or product/service could it be that we describe what we seek and have that matched to the available products that fit (be the product a car a meal or a data set?)

Could we not level this out so that we creat products they meet the demand rather than using technology and science to manipulate behavior to create artificial demand for needless consumption and waste just to generate short term revenue for “shareholders” at any cost to stakeholders and the planet?
Pardon me the rant 🖖

, so please forgive any typos or autocorrect fumbles 
+1 201-982-0934 International 
+44 (0) 7874 948744 


On Jul 25, 2020, at 12:37 PM, susan morrow <susan.morrow@...> wrote:


Good luck Milton

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:33 AM Milton Pedraza <mpedraza@...> wrote:
It’s not a commodity, it’s a precious resource and the representation of a human life that can be a force for good. That’s the point. Human life and dignity are being devalued as a commodity right now by platforms. And we need to create representation and fair treatment and value for all human beings. The Mes need to be ethically and fairly represented in an asymmetrical digital world where data is the greatest resource. I agree with some that depending on its use, such as finding a cure, data can have high value. Those whose data was used should be fairly compensated. It’s complex, but like poverty and racism, the status quo must be changed. No perfect answers but a positive direction. 

Milton Pedraza
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988


On Jul 25, 2020, at 4:51 AM, susan morrow <susiemorrow@...> wrote:


And switching it around to the actual human part of the transaction...

I am a woman with a 3-month old baby and nowhere to live. I am sofa surfing to keep my baby from living on the streets. I use a friend's computers but I still have online accounts because I wasn't always homeless and won't always be so (although I don't know that at the time) - so I do have digital data to sell. I go online using a friend's computer and see that I can now sell my data. Bloody great because I am totally skint and my baby needs a warm coat for the winter. I sell to whoever and however because I do not have the luxury of choice and consent is a joke when there is no choice.

You are creating a dystopian stick to hit people without choice if you make personal data a commodity - I don't like nanny states but this is not about that. If we were working in health or science we'd have to have an ethical framework to work off. Technologists don't seem to care coz it's about the money.

I am going back to my cave.

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 11:51 PM Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:
To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business?
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.




Johannes Ernst

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088


<indie-computing-logo-01.png>



--
Susan Morrow
Head of R&D Avoco Identity
@avocoidentity
T: 07917507826

Avoco Secure are providers of Cloud Identity, Security and Privacy solutions.

Registered Office: Avoco Secure Ltd., 16 St. Martin's-le-Grand, London EC1A 4EE. Company number : 04778206 - Registered in England and Wales.


James A (One.Thing.Less)
 

@Iain and others – why do you think that the big players (Google, Facebook etc.) are not (yet) doing too much in those spaces and leave quite some money on the table for intermediaries? Reputational concerns, regulatory concerns, complexity…?

 

 

From: <main@Me2BAlliance.groups.io> on behalf of "Iain Henderson via groups.io" <iain.henderson@...>
Reply to: "main@Me2BAlliance.groups.io" <main@Me2BAlliance.groups.io>
Date: Saturday, 25 July 2020 at 20:45
To: "main@Me2BAlliance.groups.io" <main@Me2BAlliance.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Me2BAlliance] Selling personal data -- an experiment

 

Agreed James, although I suspect the steady state for ‘considered purchases’ won’t need/ benefit from intermediaries. Individuals (demand) will have standardised API’s as will the manufacturers, distributors and retailers (supply).

 

If you look at considered purchases in more detail, Google, Facebook and Amazon don’t actually try to do too much in those spaces other than hand off to sector level experts after the search phase. For example, if you do a google search for ’new car’ you get intermediaries at the top of the list as below. Behind the scenes the manufacturers are happy to let the intermediaries separate the wheat from the chaff (unless the search mentions them specifically).

 

Iain

 



On 25 Jul 2020, at 12:06, James A (One.Thing.Less) <James@...> wrote:

 

I agree with Iain‘s example below. One of the most difficult aspects to address though will be how to overcome the market dominance of the established players (e.g. Google, Facebook, Amazon). Under pressure they could offer a functionality as part of their services where a Me can do better intent casting (potentially also incentivized as they have deep pockets) and at the same time offer the B‘s an integrated solution that tracks the successful conversions.

 

Concrete example: Google offers a Me looking for a car (based on browsing behavior) USD 10 to participate in a 10-20 question survey regarding the details of the Me‘s car requirement (spec, brands, timing, budget etc.) and consent to share with car manufacturers / retailers. Then Google offers that information and the possibility to hand in an offer for USD 20 to 20 manufacturers and 20 car dealers, making USD 400 in revenues with that bit of information if everyone buys. Google might even use AI to browse the online inventories of manufacturers and retailers to select only those who would love to get a car (working capital) off their lot ASAP... 

 

It would be very hard (but not impossible with the right financial backing) to compete with the big ones, ending most likely in an acquisition by one of the big players and being integrated in Google search...

 

My 2 cents.

James

 

 

On 25 Jul 2020, at 01:16, Iain Henderson via groups.io <iain.henderson@...> wrote:

I’d disagree, it is very easy to illustrate what is currently happening in the market and how that can be bettered.

 

That said, I think selling personal data is the wrong framing; that’s not how it is going to work. It will work through reciprocity - i.e. mutually beneficial relationships.

 

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)

 

I am a mid range, mass market car manufacturer, currently paying a range of intermediaries between £100 and £200 per qualified lead; i.e. people who are actively in the market for things like that which I sell.


* What data do you want to buy from me?

 

I want to buy the details of your requirement (spec, timing, optional points, price sensitivity)


* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 

 

If you can get me that data either ’same data bit cheaper’, or ‘better data, same price’ or, ‘much more qualifying data at higher price’ then it would be economically stupid of me not to buy from you.


* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))

 

As above - same date but cheaper, or better data same price; or much better data, higher price 


* How are you avoiding being gamed?

 

I only pay out when the purchase has been made and verified (either through myself or a competitor)

 

I could fill in the above very easily for about 30 different sectors in which paying for qualified leads is absolutely business as usual.

 

This article might be also useful background.

 

 

Cheers

 

Iain

 

 



On 24 Jul 2020, at 23:58, Milton Pedraza <mpedraza@...> wrote:

 

Three aren’t any. It’s up to us to step up and create them for people. 

 

Milton Pedraza

CEO

Luxury Institute, LLC

917-657-4988

 



On Jul 24, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:

To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.

 


Johannes Ernst

 

Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088

 

 

<indie-computing-logo-01.png>

 

<indie-computing-logo-01.png>

 

 


Iain Henderson
 

Hi James, I think that particular one is around complexity. They know that they cannot serve the needs of those looking for complex products very well with only a single white box to fill in. So they make more money by doing that hand-off to someone who is more geared up to do so.

Google have dabbled in the space over the years with various ‘offers’ services or comparison shopping but they are not as yet that big in those areas.

Iain

On 8 Sep 2020, at 08:09, James A (One.Thing.Less) <James@...> wrote:

@Iain and others – why do you think that the big players (Google, Facebook etc.) are not (yet) doing too much in those spaces and leave quite some money on the table for intermediaries? Reputational concerns, regulatory concerns, complexity…?
 
 
From: <main@Me2BAlliance.groups.io> on behalf of "Iain Henderson via groups.io" <iain.henderson@...>
Reply to: "main@Me2BAlliance.groups.io" <main@Me2BAlliance.groups.io>
Date: Saturday, 25 July 2020 at 20:45
To: "main@Me2BAlliance.groups.io" <main@Me2BAlliance.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Me2BAlliance] Selling personal data -- an experiment
 
Agreed James, although I suspect the steady state for ‘considered purchases’ won’t need/ benefit from intermediaries. Individuals (demand) will have standardised API’s as will the manufacturers, distributors and retailers (supply).
 
If you look at considered purchases in more detail, Google, Facebook and Amazon don’t actually try to do too much in those spaces other than hand off to sector level experts after the search phase. For example, if you do a google search for ’new car’ you get intermediaries at the top of the list as below. Behind the scenes the manufacturers are happy to let the intermediaries separate the wheat from the chaff (unless the search mentions them specifically).
 
Iain
 
<image001.png>


On 25 Jul 2020, at 12:06, James A (One.Thing.Less) <James@...> wrote:
 
I agree with Iain‘s example below. One of the most difficult aspects to address though will be how to overcome the market dominance of the established players (e.g. Google, Facebook, Amazon). Under pressure they could offer a functionality as part of their services where a Me can do better intent casting (potentially also incentivized as they have deep pockets) and at the same time offer the B‘s an integrated solution that tracks the successful conversions.
 
Concrete example: Google offers a Me looking for a car (based on browsing behavior) USD 10 to participate in a 10-20 question survey regarding the details of the Me‘s car requirement (spec, brands, timing, budget etc.) and consent to share with car manufacturers / retailers. Then Google offers that information and the possibility to hand in an offer for USD 20 to 20 manufacturers and 20 car dealers, making USD 400 in revenues with that bit of information if everyone buys. Google might even use AI to browse the online inventories of manufacturers and retailers to select only those who would love to get a car (working capital) off their lot ASAP... 
 
It would be very hard (but not impossible with the right financial backing) to compete with the big ones, ending most likely in an acquisition by one of the big players and being integrated in Google search...
 
My 2 cents.
James
 
 

On 25 Jul 2020, at 01:16, Iain Henderson via groups.io<iain.henderson@...> wrote:

I’d disagree, it is very easy to illustrate what is currently happening in the market and how that can be bettered. 
 
That said, I think selling personal data is the wrong framing; that’s not how it is going to work. It will work through reciprocity - i.e. mutually beneficial relationships.
 
* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
 
I am a mid range, mass market car manufacturer, currently paying a range of intermediaries between £100 and £200 per qualified lead; i.e. people who are actively in the market for things like that which I sell.

* What data do you want to buy from me?
 
I want to buy the details of your requirement (spec, timing, optional points, price sensitivity)

* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 
 
If you can get me that data either ’same data bit cheaper’, or ‘better data, same price’ or, ‘much more qualifying data at higher price’ then it would be economically stupid of me not to buy from you.

* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
 
As above - same date but cheaper, or better data same price; or much better data, higher price 

* How are you avoiding being gamed?
 
I only pay out when the purchase has been made and verified (either through myself or a competitor)
 
I could fill in the above very easily for about 30 different sectors in which paying for qualified leads is absolutely business as usual.
 
This article might be also useful background.
 
 
Cheers
 
Iain
 
 


On 24 Jul 2020, at 23:58, Milton Pedraza <mpedraza@...> wrote:
 
Three aren’t any. It’s up to us to step up and create them for people. 
 
Milton Pedraza 
CEO
Luxury Institute, LLC
917-657-4988
 


On Jul 24, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Johannes Ernst <jernst@...> wrote:

To shed some light about the viability of selling personal data, on a non-trivial scale, by “consumers" to one or more “vendors" — which I think is the scenario being discussed — I suggest a thought experiment.

Let’s say I am willing to sell my personal data (I’m not, but let’s assume I am), any of it, as long as the price is right.

For the purposes of this experiment, let’s also assume that there are no technical hurdles that make this impractical — all relevant data exists in electronic form, is standardized, easily shareable etc.

You are the “vendor” who wants to buy some of that personal data from me:

* Who are you? (Industry, product, …)
* What data do you want to buy from me?
* How is receiving that data from me materially going to improve your business? 
* How is buying that data from me better for you than the alternatives? (e.g. asking nicely :-))
* How are you avoiding being gamed?

I’d love to hear some compelling stories. Because so far I haven’t heard any :-)

Cheers,




Johannes.

 


Johannes Ernst
 
Encryption preferred. GPG fingerprint: 106E F92A BEBD 0C31 1DAF 7CD8 5726 2658 070F 1088
 
 
<indie-computing-logo-01.png>
 
<indie-computing-logo-01.png>